In reply to Landon:
I should change something - "opression" is not an accurate word. "ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE" is a more accurate description of what's happened in Darfur.
Open Forum
Free speech
In reply to Galileo's Universe:
2/3 of the population in China are farmers, most of the people still live in villages, majority of Chinese in China are not middle class, while they are struggling to meet their day to day needs, Darfur is the furthest thing on their minds. I am not trying to make excuses, CCP(Chinese Communist Party)never should have commented on Cafferty in the beginning. There are important things going on as the value of the dollars evaporating, and the living wages are not going up, the banks are actually loosing money, food prices are going up, everything is happening in the same time along with China rising. The world superpowers(well, that word isn't even politically correct now) are changing. Looking at the full picture, not just Darfur, but the middle east, central Asia, Easter Europe, Russia, India, the world order as we used to know is changing fast. I am sure the Canadians feel quite lucky,that their govt never tried to be the world police, never tried to be the boss and the leader of the world and now they are in a very comfortable position in relation with the rest of the world. All these discussions and accusations hopefully in the end would make the CCP more sensitive to their foreign policy, that they can't just use the reason of not interfering in other countries to justify sales of weapons to brutal govt, that if they want to be part of the world community, as a major player, they have to act on certain ethics and principles within the global alliances.
In reply to KaWai:
But they will not ! .... according to the international press China has as a matter of fact warned The Netherlands of the consequences they could possibly face ( I assume that they mean trade relations ) should the Dutch government decide to boycott attending the Olympic games !!! ... Is such a threat perhaps a writing on the wall or a small taste of what is to come should China, indeed, one day become the next superpower to replace the USA ? ... as far as I'm concerned .... God help us if China becomes the next superpower ...
if the CCP doesn't care about their own people , why should they ever care about the rest of the world , unless of course we are prepare to be obedient to their political whims and games .
In reply to Galileo's Universe:
You now sound like many average western paranoids to think China is a threat to global stability. In fact, China could be a neutral force between the west and the middle east, and west with North Korea. China had never invaded any land outside of its territory, if it did, all close to China(Korea during Tang dynasty) Chiina had never even invaded Japan throughout its history! China has enough internal problems to deal with, not to mention with Taiwan. China wouldn't pull a Bush stunt of invading a Middle East country for oil. Your assumption is based on paranoia. Things are changing fast, I think Chinese govt is more careful of their foreign policy due to recent events. As far as threat to trade relation, tell me one country which hadn't used that excuse, China had those threats from the west many, many, times in recent history.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mahbubani25apr25,0,2235462.story
In reply to KaWai:
'You now sound like many 'average western paranoids ' to think China is a threat to global stability. "
Please !! .. this begins to sound rather intolerant and unwilling to see other people's point of view - views with a lot of founded reasons and realities as proven by the harsh a tangible events going on today ! ...
Sorry to say but I personally have no longer interest in participating in such a pointless discussion ! You cannot force people to think the way you do just for the sake of it or due to personal loyalties based on cultural traditions !!... and all this preaching sounds to me with all respect ... more like anti USA propaganda ! ...which I do respect, because you are totally within your right to do so and you do have sound arguments ... but to call someone 'paranoid' in order to prove yourself right that is a 'bridge' to far for me personally !
I have made my point I hope you respect mine in the way I respect yours but that doesn't mean that I cannot disagree with you , that is called freedom of opinion !
I'm more interested in Darfur to be honest and what China does with its
economic power in order to increase its influence around the world , and selling arms to the people continuing the genocide in Darfur in order to gain influence in the region for whatever reasons doesn't sound to me like being just 'neighbourly' !! ... so let's not be to moralistic about China versus the USA ... let's be realistic in stead !!! ... I have nothing more to add .
Galileo don't think I am trying to give you another lecture, how can you understand another culture if you don't know their past? Please try to at least see a glimpse of Tibet/China entanglement throughout history.
In LA Times Opinion
By Kishore Mahbubani
April 25, 2008
News reports of protests targeting the Beijing Olympics torch relay -- first in France, then the U.S. and now Australia -- are surely happily consumed by Westerners who assume supporting a free Tibet is a just cause. What could be more moral than helping a weak people gain independence from an oppressive Chinese government?
The West paints the tale of Tibet in black and white: The politicians and activists in Europe and America are only trying to protect the human rights of the innocent Tibetans, who were invaded not so long ago by the communist Chinese. So when, for instance, European leaders -- so far, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek -- decide to skip the Olympics' opening ceremonies, they appear to be simply responding to a deep moral urge. Solidarity with the oppressed has been a hallmark of the West, although no Western country actually challenges China's sovereignty over Tibet.
Try stepping into the Chinese minds to understand how different the same events look. Chinese history records dominion over Tibet as far back as the 13th century. China's control has ebbed and flowed -- but this is equally true in many other parts of China. Central control by the capital has never been consistent, shifting with the strength of the central government. But this much is certain: China has been in control of most of its territories longer than some Western nations have existed.
More important, the Chinese recall that the latest efforts to separate Tibet from China came as recently as the 1940s and 1950s, when British and U.S. agents were seen to be encouraging Tibetan independence while the new People's Republic was still weak. The Chinese also have powerful memories of Britain's central role in the notorious opium trade of the 18th and 19th centuries, when European trading companies sold the drug to smugglers, then used the ill-gotten gold to buy silk, tea and porcelain.
The related Opium Wars, during which Hong Kong was seized by Britain, are a distant memory in Western minds but remain in the forefront of the Chinese psyche. When the West is seen to be trying to detach Chinese territory again, it rubs salt into this still-fresh wound. Virtually no Chinese believe that Western governments have a strictly moral interest in Tibet. They are convinced that their efforts are only the latest efforts to dismember or derail China.
Is Chinese cynicism concerning Western human rights campaigns justified? The West, led by President Nixon and his secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, first fell in love with China when the country was barely recovered from the Cultural Revolution, but one of the worst chapters in the history of human rights went without mention. By contrast, in the 1990s, when the Chinese people were experiencing the best quality of life they'd had in centuries, the West focused incessantly on the 1989 Tiananmen Square demonstrations and other evidence of China's human rights deficiencies. It's Western internal interests, not conditions in China, that clearly drive attitudes.
The lions of human rights, particularly in European capitals, behave like poodles in Beijing. Virtually all of them spend their time trying to sell products to China. Then, in passing, they will whisper that they have to mention human rights issues because when they return home they have to say that these issues were raised. That sends an unmistakable message: This is a Western ritual; please do not pay too much attention to it. Given this record, it is not surprising that Chinese leaders have little respect for European leaders when they make grand gestures on human rights in front of their domestic audiences.
The tragedy is that any victims of such moral posturing will be Tibetans, who will suffer the most if a virulent new Chinese nationalism is created in response.
So far, even though Beijing's record of rule over Tibet is less than perfect, China's leaders have tried to preserve autonomy for Tibet. Indeed, in theory there is no fundamental disagreement between the position of the exiled Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhists' foremost spiritual leader, and that of the Chinese government. The Dalai Lama advocates autonomy, not independence; the official Chinese government policy paper on Tibet says that it "regards exercise of regional ethnic autonomy in areas where ethnic communities live in compact communities as a basic policy for solving the ethnic issue."
Given this, the West should try to narrow, not widen, the gulf between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government. But that is the work of quiet diplomacy, not grandstanding.
Kishore Mahbubani, dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, wrote "The New Asian Hemisphere: The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East."
And China would have never needed to post such threat to the Dutch gov't if none of these biased news consistently take place from Western media. To Chinese in mainland, or to CCP, they feel they were provoked, not saying if a threat was smart but that's what I think the CCP was thinking. I live in the US, and I still think US is the biggest bully on the block, because they had actually done it, dropped bombs in another country in peaceful time, with Iraq, and remember US bombing of Chinese Embassy in Belgrade? The US state dept tried to make a lame excuse of use of a wrong map-boy they could drop a bomb anywhere they want in the world with such an excuse....
POST SCRIPTUM ;
Quote : "And China would have never needed to post such threat to the Dutch gov't if none of these biased news consistently take place from Western media "
This begins to sound really scary now... so like : ' if you don't do what I say or if you step out of line for whatever reason, then be prepared to face the consequences ! '
Point proven and perhaps there are excellent reasons to be ' paranoid ' in the end !
In reply to Galileo's Universe:
You quoted MY POINT OF VIEW of why I thought the CCP made such a threat as a reason for your paranoia? Or for the entire western world to be paranoid? Just speak for yourself, as I am just speaking from my viewpoint. Paranoid or not, if the dialogs stopped between Chinese people and the west, real understanding would never take place, if the west insist China to abide by international rules, yet refuse to listen to them, there will never be any mutual respect. I have been on chat rooms, of course there are arguement and disagreement, my support of freedom of speech and press to some people who are in China, now its just an excuse for the west to manipulate how they want the world to view CHina as, there are lots of frustration, Darfur, to average Chinese in China, it's not something they concern about. Just as Darfur is not something many average Americans are concern about, or many average Japanese are concern about, or many Europeans are concern about. I am not making light of the incident, but that's just what I see. I understand where some of the Chinese are coming from, and I understand some Westerners where they are coming from. In my view, I think the CCP felt they were provoked by the west, in continuing with the biased reports, therefore they put out such threat, CCP is their own worse enemy when it comes to PR. To many Chinese, the bombing of Belgrade, and occupation of Iraq, are the most aggressive form of not respecting nations, since US wasn't attacked by any of the 2. You are taking China's words and human rights record as reasons to be paranoid, and I am siting actual evidences of attacks by the US, and how it drove the country into bankruptcy, and how the administration lack of oversight in health insurance practices, for my reasons of my extreme detest of the Bush Administration. Of course China's terrible human rights record is the reason why Chinese is facing so many opposition, I am not happy with CCP foreign policy with brutal dictators,and how they treat their citizens when it comes to freedom of speech. But I feel the dialogs between Chinese people and westerners need to keep going, don't stop communicating with the Chinese because if so this will only shut out China and make China go backwards, we all must continue with the debates(don't mean on this forum, but in the world), along with all the disagreements and arguments, because some sort of orders and understanding will come out of the chaos. And I firmly believe, because of China's past history and relationship with dealing with Persia, the Middle East(which was always a very neutral none aggressive policy), and Korea, China can really be the neutralizer between the West and these regions in the world, China's rising could help ease the diplomatic tension of the West and the middle east.
Please, no matter your prejudices, don't stop communicating with the Chinese people, because these people can influence their govt. This is a crucial time in our human history, we ordinary people by going to chat rooms and forums such as this can actually carry on dialogs with other parts of the world, we can actually in our small ways change a little bit.