The Dreaded Twin Towers, Even though the events that took place at the World Trades Centre was very bad, It is time to stop using it as an excuse for creative and political change, a lot more people have sufferd and died at the hands of two Coutries since that event? At the start of the war in Iraqu, U.K fashion magazines where using the event as a fashion statement by putting models and clothes in war zone elements, fashion and war culture crossed the line from reality to fantesy glamourising war

Sebastion, Im not sure of your point?
The reason to mention the twin towers, was a question.. was the fall of the twin towers the contemporary reference point for the end of postmodernism.... it suggested there ARE fundimental unquestionable truths, ie: that something could be so WRONG. and so did it cause (or influence) a major paradigmatical shift away from postmodernism? (popularly ... not just within the creative arts)

I dont know the answer (!) myself,

but I think that concept is the opposite of using it as an arbitary event 'excuse' for creative change, or for 'military chic'. I'm not talking about trivialising disasters.

but Im sorry if i misunderstood your post.

"Rosenau (1993)identifies seven contradictions in Postmodernism:
1. Its anti-theoretical position is essentially a theoretical stand.
2. While Postmodernism stresses the irrational, instruments of reason are freely employed to advance its perspective.
3. The Postmodern prescription to focus on the marginal is itself an evaluative emphasis of precisely the sort that it otherwise attacks.
4. Postmodernism stresses intertextuality but often treats text in isolation.
5. By adamently rejecting modern criteria for assessing theory, Postmodernists cannot argue that there are no valid criteria for judgement.
6. Postmodernism criticizes the inconsistency of modernism, but refuses to be held to norms of consistency itself.
7. Postmodernists contradict themselves by relinquishing truth claims in their own writings."

Is it any wonder that it's confusing?

And now I’m confused too! Excuse me if I'm being dense here but... If modernism is a kind of blanket term applied to many different disciplines – sciences, philosophy, literature, art etc – all of which evolve over a fairly specific period of time, then surely postmodernism is the same? Modernism in the Arts embraced many different movements, from impressionism (or before) to Pop Art and Hyperrealism. All along, divergent movements existed in parallel to each other too. And, quite seamlessly it seems, we move from modernism to postmodernism. And back again, or are still moving, because there are still quite a few modernists knocking around. So what’s the problem? While writing this I do realise that postmodernism is more than just the moniker for a period of time – it’s also a kind of 'optic' which, within its time frame, throws into sharp focus those movements that are considered to embody approaches in the Arts relevant to an underlying philosophy specific to an epoch. But what movements are we talking about here - or what trends rather, given that the current multiplicity of approaches make identifying movements more and more difficult?

In an attempt to find out, I’ve discovered the opening quote, plus that certain philosophers have been calling postmodernism into question and proffering other things as alternatives. Though what these are, and what the knock-on effect for other arts is likely to be, I'm not sure. Sorry...

If 9/11 is a consequence of American imperialism, are we in the process of entering a horrible neo-classic phase again as a direct result of this (I mean as a result of American imperialism, not 9/11)? Might this in some way help explain how a figurative painter has been nominated for this year’s Turner Prize, and the slight shockwave this is causing?

If we are in a transitional period, from postmodernism to whatever the next thing will be, or indeed is already if, as with modernism, they overlap, I hope for showstudio’s sake that it’s not postmodern if what it wants is to be at the vanguard! I do think showstudio might be considered a movement. But whatever it is, it’s definitely not pornographic.

P.S. I agree with 99000 here – this debate will seem to chase its own tail if it doesn’t stop being so broad, so B+W, and start being a little more specific. Oh, and the term ‘contemporary’ covers a multitude of sins?

woah! Great post f:lux.

I definately wasn't calling showstudio pornographic in any way... There was a famous quote in the u.s. about obscenity -"I don't know how to define it but I know it when I see it" I'm the same way with postmodernism.

I'm a layman on the subject but it gets me going. I've meant to write a big post on this but I dont have the time..

Hi Donello, I see what you mean now, and it's a good quote! I think I meant to say that I personally don't find it pornographic - I don't know if you noticed it but in the showstudio blog last week some time there was great excitement about an article entitled, "Fashion or Porn? Shocker headline!!!" re: an article about the Liberty Ross project in the British press, and I can't see what the shock factor is.

cheers!

F:lux great post, I have been thinking all day on how to be succinct in response. I created the heading and question "DEATH OF POSTMODERNISM" because it is something i do chase around my head. Im sorry I havent been that clear about what I am trying to say i was hoping the posts would help me do that!

where im coming from is this and maybe I have it arse about.

Modernism isnt neccesarily a temporal movement, the 'blanket term' is applied to any movement that shares the tenets, which I have taken that to be the belief in a measurable observable objective reality. Within that there develops metanarratives that seek to explain the way the world works. So art movements within that would be modernist if they share those beliefs (most art and ideas since the enlightenment).

Postmodernism makes no assumtions about the existence of an objective reality indeed if the real world is out there we would have no way of knowing. It is also defined (by Lyotard 1984) as being the "incredulity toward metanarratives" but this definition is what f:lux via Rosenau highlights as being a major stumbling point, because in purporting to be 'against metanarratives" postmodernism itself is in danger of being taken as a metanarrative. (that is the circularity that leads to its "death")

SO I think modernism and postmodernism do exist at the same time as different epistomologies, i think at the moment we probably take a bit of one perspective and a bit of another, but we know they are both flawed. My original post I guess was about asking everyone that reads the SHOWstudio forum where they felt they are at creatively.

If we look at the new SHOWstudio project today, Dress Me Up Dress Me Down, where the audience particpates in the creation of the art via web, then that has a lot of postmodern concepts, celebration of process rather than of finished 'art' and the collaboration of audience in creation, it also questions where is the finished 'art'. But there is something about SHOWstudio that feels like its different to postmodernism. and that is what is exciting about it.

So Sorry Ethan, you are right of course, things like this do influence creative forces with high enotions in us sensative creative people.

Hey Flux I do not know a lot about Postmodernisim, roughly when did it start and what is its defined style, is it post sept 11. The good thing about this forum is that we areall learning so I will get some books out and find out, all the best Se

Hi Ethan, thanks for the precision - and the topic! It is interesting. I woke up this morning thinking that postmodernism is a schitzo-survivor, in that something so contradictory, so hard to define, is going to be difficult to pin down and overtake. A clean, clinical demise seems unlikely. So this debate may last a long time...

I think it is temporal though. It's just difficult to see it when you're smack in the middle. Especially as it isn't linear, even as it is temporal. Does that make sense?

Does showstudio have a 'manifesto'?

I'm not shocked by anything showstudio does, but I am sometimes awestruck. If Art is sometimes about provoking strong or gut reactions, I prefer the latter, every time.

Voila!

Hi Sebastion, as far as I can tell it began developing with Dada and I suppose Marcel Duchamp is Dad? I'm no expert! So good luck.