if haute couture and pret-a-porter can coexist, shouldn't it be the same with taking pictures?

Oh come on, speed up please - photography has been mass-reproducable since Fox-Talbot! And?

I don't think his point had anything to do with the mass-reproducability of photographs.

I think his point was to question what it means to be an artist, if one embraces commercialism to such a degree.

theres a difference between fashion and beauty photographers but theres a bigger difference between photojournalists and documentary photographers.the visitations of the haves to the have-nots carpet-bagger pictures,from newspaper snappers spending days to magnum guys spending months they tend to remain distanced from their subject.
documentary photographers who are part of and producing valuable work sometime taking years,the subject remains primary and the aesthetic secondary,quite often the opposite of fashion pictures where its the style selling the subject...its important to know the difference....SUBJECT.

And speaking of subject, aren't we getting off it here a bit?

(I really love that shaw can talk about sheep and fish in his posts and nobody says anything, but I throw in a Fox-Talbot and get a reprimand! I've now forgotten what it was I was trying to say there though, so let it pass...)

As for embracing commercialism and yet still being an artist (haven't we had this conversation already?), perhaps an alternative definition of 'artist' could be, someone who successfully sells you something you don't really need and didn't even know you wanted for large sums of money. The problem with this definition though is that it's very reductive - it isn't the money an artist makes - or doesn't make for that matter - that makes them an artist. So calling Martin Parr a shopkeeper is out of order, no? It could be said that one of his subjects is the English, and he is English so it's the work of a lifetime, you can't get longer projects than that! Also, a comparison was made above between his documentary work past and present, a value judgement based on shifts in his STYLE. So I remain convinced that an artist's vision and approach is just as important as subject.

P.S. shaw, I've been meaning to asking you this question for a while now so please don't get the wrong idea about me posing the question here and now, but... did you become a night porter specifically so you could make the photographs you did, or did it occur to you to make a project from the job after beginning it? Thanks.

did the CHICKEN come before the egg or the egg before the chicken?is never a question i ask myself....i think that would be too fowl. was it my will or gods will?make your own mind up...theres nothing wrong with being commercial... i have two books being published in a slipcase A3 SIZE by twin palms out in october, one called NIGHT PORTER,..the other SANDY HILL ESTATE 1986-89.
"a comparitive judgement about shifts in his style"?quite the opposite its the same picture for twenty years!but this is not new,artists,filmakers,...whatever can and do quickly become a cliche of themselves,and thats a commercial trap that can happen whether your names...de chirico,francis bacon,wongkarwai,or martin parr.i am not an artist.

Interesting response. I was just curious because I'd recalled Sophie Calle's Hotel project, where she became employed by a specific hotel chosen in order to pursue a pre-planned piece of work, and wondered if you had a similar approach. Completely different approaches of course.

As for the 'artists' you cite, have they really spent so much time producing cliches, or have they pursued the perfectly valid (if somewhat old-school?) in-depth explorations of their own forms and styles of expression? The really funny thing is, Parr has turned out to be a good example of this. When I met him in 1987 he told me quite catagorically that all photographers have a shelf life of 10 years max, the implication being that at that point you should give up, step down and go do something else instead, and that that was exactly what he was about to go do. But look at him now! 18 years on and he's still at it, and I think his work has evolved. (Must have caught him on a bad day or something)

Anyway, good luck with the books - let us all know when they come out? As for the chicken and egg stuff, I suspect it makes you an artist whether you like it or not. And a bit of a post-modern one at that ;)

hi! me and my boyfriend also take photographs, but he's more professionally a photographer than me ;) while i just take some snapshots and documentary photos with available lighting, he did some photos for ads, etc. but we did it just for the money, because it's hard to make an art out of a photography job in my country. but we were also just beginning this field, we used to be graphic designer, and honestly we did commercial photography just for the money, we outlet our creativities in our other artwork, like right now we're making a documentary film and documentary photos.
i think nowadays, everyone can be called photographer, as long as they got the EYE for it? but the one that will survived in front of the public is either :
a. they are really good
b. they know how to act really good
c. they make people believe that they are good

???
honestly, i just don't know about this creativity world anymore, it's all the same now what happens in photography also happens in art, design, fashion, films, videoclips, just every thing. even in business

;)

I must tell you that you really need to love what you do, then you need ,as Dee says, "to make people/clients believe that you are good", then you need to have GREAT agent when it comes to negotiating business side, but also you need to understand the photography business yourself. True, being a photographer you have no idea what you are going to do tomorrow, but that's what I like about it. And then it's all about LUCK ! (but not only luck ...)
:)))))) A.

I think to survive as a professional photographer in fashion you have to have some drive for it, you have to love seeing your work in print, you have to love to create, and then you have to learn to negotiate fee, it's all part of it. Sometimes you meet honest clients, sometimes you meet sharks. Helmut Newton wrote in his memoire how he started as a portrait photographer and a little on pricing, check it out.