What makes you say that, Graeme?

By Sandrine at 11:57 Wed 21 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I'm sure you have some idea of what provoked Graham's reaction Sandrine ???

By Karl Fuler at 16:11 Wed 21 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

What do you honestly imagine that Kate Moss represents to most people in our culture?

By Karl Fuler at 10:02 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

different things to different people Karl. What does she represent to you?

By la at 11:28 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Well, she is a pleasant woman with some shaky views, but she REPRESENTS many negative aspects of our culture.
Do you have any views on this?

By Karl Fuler at 11:45 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I guess the idea behind this project is to get you to express your feelings in some floral way.You could send her a bunch of stinging nettles or thorny rose stems or a wreath if you were feeling negative. A crown of thorns wold be seen to be symbollic.

By la at 12:09 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I can think of better things to do with my feelings.
Are you sending something? Forgetmenot or Toadflax perhaps?

By Karl Fuler at 12:21 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Don't we all have some shaky views, don't we all act shaky sometime in our lives? And culture-what is it? It's a mixture of all the goods and bads and trials and errors combined.
Does Kate Moss really represents negative aspects of our culture? I think she is too young to be summed up at this point.

By KaWai at 19:04 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

...I do understand your point of view to certain extent...but then to answer the question, my thoughts are ( and I'm speculating of course ), I don't think she herself wishes or pretends to represent anything in the way mentioned......the wending her life has taken is all born out of the position and status she has acquired as an icon along the way in the field of beauty & fashion and only just because she happens to work in the mentioned industry, and the press has done ( still does) the rest in making her in wanting to make her in what you have referred to .

She certainly have proved to be very good at what she does as a model without no doubt at all, there lies her true achievement......What she does in/with her private life doesn't really concern me because she is just a human being like anyone with virtues and faults....What the press and her fans make of her has indeed all to do with , again, what the press and the fans make of it all....
I do not particularly attach her the so called value in culture just because she happens to be taking part in this project, it is just a job where she happens to be the model...and as for the project itself the aspect I like is that ' Say it with Flowers' is a positive thought and a goodwill gesture in essence and symbolism.....

I have read some opinions in the internet about her that are ever so shameful to even think them because nobody is absolutely perfect... and when I remember those mean thoughts then I am obliged to put everything in perspective and then I would say ...1000 times Kate Moss the model in ' Say with Flowers' than when thinking of the so many people who are in the limelight and who have positions of true power, whose bad decisions always affect people in a very profound way ...To give you an idea., and please forgive my choice of example, I do not intend to offend anyone....: 'Say with flowers for Tony Blair '....then I would certainly disapprove.....and all based on his decisions that have brought great sadness to many people...and when thinking of all the humans who out no choice of their own had/have to go to a war that is not particularly theirs... and not forgetting the sorrow such actions have caused to many families because their love ones no longer can come back home...but sadly all gone to dust...that is when I think people should attach a value of profound effect if we want to be moralistic about a person in the limelight. What she may represent to some people and her value as 'culture ' because they want/wish to attach a label to her that is up to each individual's wisdom to decide . She just lives her life the way she can, wishes to, is allowed to the best of her abilities , and bad decisions are always made by all us humans at one point in our lives... that's life ....

I personally would find it rather unfair to assume anything without really knowing her personally or that well enough as to be sure of ones personal judgement on her persona....and in the way I personally see things, I believe in what is called ' the private space '. ...and I always consider that sacred because everyone has the right to it even if they happen to be a movie stars, an icon, etc . Having said that I thoroughly enjoy the positive aspect of the project.....because the real world is full of really ugly things.....positive energy is what really matters in the end...but that is one opinion among so many...:):):)

By Galileo's Universe at 00:05 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

In her professional role Kate Moss does represent many ugly realities – and that is her personal choice, not necessity. She may not have chosen or created her great influence, but it is only her responsibility how she uses it.
Do you think Nick knight would continue with this project if Kate Moss was to come out as a far right, holocaust denier, for example.

By Karl Fuler at 10:45 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

On the first statement...aren't we humans demanding far to much of her and her character when we 'ordinary mortals' are to lazy to even treat each other with courtesy and respect while doing something so banal like waiting at a queue ? I'm not so sure that it is our role to say or demand for that matter how she should behave or use her 'responsibility ' when people cannot even keep a promise ! Forgive me...but the only people I will always applied those demands exactly as you mentioned it....are : politicians , the clergy and anyone in a position of trust ....People who use ( or expect ) icons or figures in the entertainment industry to be 'Moral Riders ' do need help indeed, I totally agree with you......In any case I'm not so sure she represents more uglier things than Poetin, Mugabe, etc... and all the totally morally corrupted ' Crown Jewels ' we call ...'Political Leaders of the World '...perhaps we are always looking in the wrong place to search for real and tangible ugliness .... that's is my humble opinion...

On your second statement...my question would be : Is that true ? !!!... and has that been documented and published in order to inform myself a lot better because I'm curious to enlighten myself on the subject. I always like to read facts as long as they are tangible facts and not gossip made up by human's virtue in pettiness, so that I'm able to voice a solid and sound personal opinion on such a profound subject.....but to be very honest with you, as far as I'm concerned I've never ever read that in any informative journal of stature, surely I've missed that one !....that would be a total revelation to me... indeed.. ..if what you are saying is correct
and accurate !

By Galileo's Universe at 12:19 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I dont care what she does in her private life,but i dont think shes anything overtly special,i guess she provokes reaction and she is admired,but shes a total sell out,
a perfume,a clothing line,she is the jordon of the fashion world and she is whipping her name for as much cash as she can before nobody cares about her any more...
im in no doubt that she will look stunning in the final product and that the end result will look sharp and creative as all of show studios work is...but i dont care about kate,if anything she is safe ,people should send her coronations!

By samanthaj at 05:24 Sun 02 Dec 2007 | reply to this >

...... you are very entitled to your own opinion, very understandably ....but I'm just wondering how can someone who doesn't care about... whoever.... can write with so much passion as to give away her very personal personal feelings about someone they claim... not to care at all !!... , that is really puzzling.....to put it mildly...:):)

By Galileo's Universe at 07:56 Sun 02 Dec 2007 | reply to this >

PS. If we are talking about the language of flowers ..... perhaps yellow CARNATIONS are more appropriate in the case anyone feels just like that ..... :):)

By Galileo's Universe at 12:04 Sun 02 Dec 2007 | reply to this >

I don't think so

By Karl Fuler at 12:36 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Of course it depends who is under it.?

By Chris Summerfield at 17:11 Thu 22 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

The Rolling Stones were musicians who created popular pop/rock music. A fashion model is someone who is chosen to be used to help create images to sell fashion.

The UK culture needs help.

By Karl Fuler at 10:59 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Yes, that’s what we were discussing.
Don’t you think that the huge attention that KM receives is of much consequence? Or is there a greater need to chit chatter about what flowers Kate will get?

By Karl Fuler at 11:42 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

You are quite wrong that the huge attention that KM recieves is of much consequence. It is a journalistic conceit; a trope just to write something, anything pressworthy - the subject isn't of much consequence. What they are saying about her isn't about her per se, it could just as easily be written about someone else famous and female - as it was about Marianne Faithful, indeed, after the Redlands bust, by an albeit far less sophisticated media industry.

This kind of 'let's have a heated debate' outrage obfuscates real social ills. The fact that our newspapers are full of Kate Moss rather that the fact that the multinationals that she endorses -yes with her appearance- are in fact what influences the fabric of our lives (material, moral, whatever). Are you honestly bothered that Kate Moss does drugs? And if so, do you think it improves our society to focus on that fact through a constant barrage of Daily Mail-style reportage?

Faced with reading the same style of -frankly misogynist- article that has been written about Kate Moss since June 1993 over and over again, yes, Karl, I'd rather think about flowers.

By Sandrine at 14:52 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Misogynistic?? What do they say?
I would be overjoyed if people switched their interest of Kate Moss to one of flowers, and if you have an interest in flowers why soil it with the baggage of association that is Kate Moss the icon.
I agree, if it wasn’t KM, it would be someone else constantly in the press, but if you think there is no demand for these articles, and that this phenomena is of no consequence, then you are greatly mistaken. KM has found herself in this situation and she can deal with it however she wishes. I don’t really care about the effect on Kate using cocaine, though there are some very serious moral issues around this drug which do concern me, but it doesn’t sound like they would bother you, Sandrine.
Maybe Kate could use her huge public attention and wealth to speak out about the multinationals that made her rich? But why should she? Let’s forget about that sort of thing and discuss our floral tributes to her.

By Karl Fuler at 16:08 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I'm absolutely against the use of cocaine because I've seen how treacherously enticing the drug is and the user doesn't realise the immense devastation it causes to the human spirit and not to mention the physiological effect !!! but how can you tell a grown-up with all the wealth at his/her disposal to think hard and long about the wreck he/she is about to become before it is rather too late ?.....If the person self cannot see it and realises it even with 200 mirrors in front of the face , then who can do it ?..... a totally impossible task !... I only sincerely wish if that is her case, indeed, that she can pull herself together and realise how much the goddess of fortune has given her, and indeed use her absolute very good fortune and blessings towards a very positive, good and plausible cause, not far from home, that would be simply ....the best !

By Galileo's Universe at 20:22 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Indeed! And there is also the dreadful consequences of the whole system of production and distribution of this drug to bear in mind. To hear of some of it can be quite horrifying.

By Karl Fuler at 23:54 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

....and add to that what is in the way from one of the new EEC members...a new utterly devastating chemical called the 'wonder' drug...!...God help us !....
The irony is that drugs have always been around and utterly impossible to vanish, it is always up to each individual to use his/her common sense. In the 1920's it was opium when many relevant/important figures of the social, artistic and aristocratic elite of the time were regular and well known users of it, perhaps today is a lot more visible because as Sandrine put it " It is a journalistic conceit; a trope just to write something, anything pressworthy "...In this case it happens to be KM....therefore an easier and vulnerable target, but perhaps the press should dedicate a lot more time to the issue itself by being really sincere about it and make a more positive contribution by perhaps donating a whole free page on weekly basis in every newspaper to campaign against the use and abuse of such substances....because what always bothers me about the press in general...is the whole insincerity issue that surrounds the almost schizophrenic attention and religiously dedication paid to KM when it comes to such important and serious issue, when in fact a lot more so called ' important' public figures seem to be at it as well...

By Galileo's Universe at 08:20 Sat 24 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

...excellent referee ...LOL !

By Galileo's Universe at 12:50 Fri 23 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I wonder if Nick knew posting this subject on the forum would start the ongoing discussion of the expected issues.

By KaWai at 01:01 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

For better or for worse... that's the absolute beauty in the freedom of speech !.. We can agree and disagree but in the end we will always find somehow a common ground...I hope !... and we all can still be amicable towards each other ... and never kill the exercise in ' The Art of Thinking ' because is far to valuable. And Mr Nick Night is a very inspiring and a brave human being who is making a great contribution in a time were there are so very few who care about the ' Art of Thinking ' and he is very generous in making this forum available to those who care to think......

By Galileo's Universe at 07:51 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

erratum ; ............. 'Nick Knight ' ....( I definitely was not thinking... !!!) :):):)

By Galileo's Universe at 07:57 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

"she is a reflection of today's UK popular culture" - exactly! trash culture! - not to say that she isn't a good model, but what role model to young women is being a model?? How many female fashion photographers are at the top? Princess Diana was an icon too wasn't she? isn't she? Great stuff! starving herself, sending her kids to boarding school so she could spend her time shopping and holidaying.
Nick Knight is a obviously quite a clever man but must blinker himself for to acheive a comfortable life.

By Karl Fuler at 01:33 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Culture is culture, we are right in the middle of it, it's not about moral. I don't want a so call perfect person with perfect morals to be a role model, I can turn to religion for that, which is really ideas without human forms of representation, but icons are often complexed and imperfect beings-Elvis, Monroe, James Dean, famous writers and artists, most of them lived self destruction lifestyles. I think Kate Moss is inspiration to many, for whatever reasons, that's what icons are about-loose, yet collective ideas of representation-again, we are not talking about moral, this has got nothing to do with morals. I was never confused about popular people and drugs, just because some famed person who is perceived to be cool has done drugs, didn't and doesn't mean young people would follow, I think we give young people far too little credit, I don't think young people like Kate Moss for her drug past(or present), they like her(if you read blogs and webpages dedicated to her) for her sense of independence and style. Young people are not that stupid.

By KaWai at 03:21 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I'm just wondering what is indeed " popular culture" today ?.... how can those two words be reduced to just one name ?.....KM ?....
If you analyse the state of the Music 'business', the state of the Art 'business', the state of the 'Talent business'...I think there is no such a thing as popular culture... but a ' Business Culture ' everything is totally dominated by the Business ' Culture'...I think popular culture does not exist anymore in the context it used to be and the way you are trying to pin it down or place it.... that's is my way of looking at it....

But then were would you place ...... Amy Winehouse ?... what does she represent ?... just out of curiosity ....

By Galileo's Universe at 08:15 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

What's wrong with some trash within the culture? I think all the good, bad, and ugly rolled into one, that's why it's interesting. Amy Winehouse, I heard she is really good and talented, her personal problems don't matter to those who love her music. I love all the gossips and the junk news, they are entertainment, they are not meant to be taken seriously. It would be really boring if the "culture" is all about rightuous, principles, pure. You know when you are getting old and not with the current pop culture when you start criticizing all the hots, ins, and current trends-take notes from the 12, 13, 14 year olds.

By KaWai at 19:16 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

KaWai I take it you're replying to Karl ! ...LOL!...

In any case I can care less about people's personal lives....I don't consider that my personal concern... but if people are truly talented like Amy is in her case... then I'm utterly interested :):):)...a pity she just cannot keep it under control because it just overshadows her innate talent... but then again that is not for me to judge because I don't believe that you can hold entertainment artists to a pre-set of moral standards as far as the use of 'recreational' substances even if you want... and I think and believe that that's the way it has always been when reading about successful pop artists in general....

By Galileo's Universe at 20:13 Sun 25 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

If there's any trash in today's pop culture, it's really the paparazzi and the agencies that buy celebs photos, and the webpages feature paz photos, and the media that chooses to put so much attention on the mundane activities of celebs.
Well, back to the flowers, the people who will send flowers for this project will be the fans and the flowers will be used as part of the photoshoot, so it's not just a floral tribute to Ms.Moss.

By KaWai at 02:23 Mon 26 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Uhmmm ?? ... the PAPARAZZI always get the blame !... not entirely fair !
The paparazzi is just trying to make a living .... and WE the public always make sure that they get rewarded .... LOL!...

Why is it that we always want to blame the rain for getting soaked in water ... and not ourselves for not carrying an umbrella or a raincoat when knowing that is going to rain ...? :):):)

By Galileo's Universe at 06:22 Thu 29 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I haven't really criticised KM for her drug use, or do I look down on A Winehouse for her self abuse. It is easy to give in to such temptations and I think we all have to do some of these things every now and then. Some people find it harder to know when to stop than others and I sympathise with this.
I agree with what you said about icons completely, but what I'm criticisingis the lack of spirited rebel icons, those who would not ally themselves with trash press and big business. Everywhere I see this weak, uninspired alligance to, and fascination with trash celeb culture. No vision.

By Karl Fuler at 10:45 Mon 26 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

That is why I said...there's only a ' BUSINESS CULTURE'...it is all about the money , society is totally corrupted by it one way or another, even if we do not want to admit it or pretend not to...
I don't see such a thing as ideals as the motivator factor in many of the today's so called 'artists '.....ART I believe is dead indeed, and we can philosophy about it endeless...but in the end the shareholders always win...they always win....
Be it fashion, be it music, be it TV, be it sport, be it art .... no one is safe from the claws of people whose ultimate ' happy' goal is to just make tons and tons of money....even if that means having to sell your own soul and principles ......so to speak...

But we cannot hold KM accountable in that sense because no matter what, her job is about creating an image and the modelling business is all about image, whether one agrees or disagrees !...the ones I really hold accountable for is OURSELVES the public, because in the end WE the consumers can always take it or leave it !...that's freedom of choice ...But do they care ?...I don not really think so as long as they are' happy '...and the 'business culture' knows that very well....clever aren't they ?...:):):)

By Galileo's Universe at 12:23 Mon 26 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

I don't really agree, this society is also full of choices, and too many choices are not always easy, how you want your life to be is entire up to you. Do you really believe majority of the people's goal is to make "tons and tons of money"? I don't think so, go ask around. It would be nice to make tons of money, but I think most people in the world value family and connecting with people, and health, above money. I don't think anybody would be happy just because their house is built by gold and they have a bunch of LV suitcases. If they feel good about themselves the more luxury brands they own, that's just insecurity, not happiness.

By KaWai at 16:57 Mon 26 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Not their goals because not everyone has the 'opportunity' or the means to make tons and tons of money, but then there is always the lottery
as a chance ( LOL! )... but yes when asking around .... the answer was.... ' having the possibility and the chance ...YES ! ' .... and why not ?... if that makes their lives happier... whatever that may mean...:):)

By Galileo's Universe at 19:16 Wed 28 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

Business art is the step that comes after Art.

- Andy Warhol

By Vikram Kansara at 21:28 Tue 27 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

yes, poor old Andy had quite a nihilistic and unromantic approach to art.

By Karl Fuler at 10:07 Wed 28 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

.... but none of that diminishes the fact about the sparkles his art managed to create. it was just another perspective ... a different source of inspiration and the one that suited him... perfectly ... as I see it :):)

By Galileo's Universe at 20:00 Wed 28 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

You know, if they are truely rebels, we probably wouldn't hear about them since the rebels would choose to stay away from the limelight and live their lives away from all the noises.

By KaWai at 16:38 Mon 26 Nov 2007 | reply to this >

... but there are always the other possibilities or reasons ... simply to be ignored or not that 'interesting' enough according to taste of the day, but to be rediscovered at a much later date...I think...:)::):)

By Galileo's Universe at 18:17 Wed 28 Nov 2007 | reply to this >